Flash in EXP Parties

[Haushinka]

Not many White Mages realize that it is okay to cast Flash durring combat. Many want to because it conserves MP however they afraid of pulling hate. At the bottom of this thread there is a discussion about it on the Allakhazan Paladin Forums. IMO White Mages would be better off casting it if they are wearing full (or near full) Artifict Armor since it has so much -enm.

ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=5;mid=11424037385119870;num=19;page=1

[Alisandra]

yeah i never cast flash cuz i did it in a pt once and got yelled at..."don't you know that's what plds use to keep hate!" so i never did it again...

[Haushinka]

Someone said that to me once. I proceded to /laugh at them and then /comfort them and instruct them to please not tell me how to play my job unless they have a clue what I do.

Granted, if you pull hate with flash you are doing something wrong as whm. But it shouldn't be much of an issue. It is helpful when the nin needs to get up utsusami ichi or usually anytime for the pld.

[Paman]

wait wait.. what does flash actually do other than generate a lot of hate? does it actually make the target miss the next 2-4 attacks, and then wear off? if it does then its kind of like utsusemi but the other way around. i can imagine this spell is very usefull if the PLD has to use cure4 or some other spell that has a long cast time, this could be a life saver when fighting maat as WHM or PLD... im not sure if this is how it works but i got this picture of it while reading the thread haus posted above ;D

[Haushinka]

2-4 I'd say would be if your really lucky. More likely it would be 1-3 attacks that they miss. And it isn't guerenteed. Lets say the mob has 80% accuracy to start, after flash I imagine it is somewhere between 20-30%. It is possible to hit but it is less likely. I normally expect flash to prevent 2 hits - at around level 50-60 a pld is usually getting hit for about 90 dmg. So it should block about 180 dmg or a cure 3's worth of damage. So bottom line, you get a Cure III for 24 mp instead of 48 or whatever it is.

On a similar note SE is saying pld will be getting another hate grabbing tool. Many people assume this will be the equivelant of a voke. I on the other hand am expecting it to be more like flash but maybe it paralyzes or something instead. This would fit what the pld job does better than provoke (using magic to pull hate instead of job abilities). I'm actually hoping that PLD might get these kind of spells just like nin has them, but they will be like flash - highly potent but short lasting.

[Paman]

wouldnt that make pld/nin the ultimate tank then? if there is going to be a new hate grabbing tool then i doubt it will be as effective as provoke.

[Haushinka]

pld should be the ultimate tank. that is what it was designed for. nin has become better than pld due primarily to nerfing other hgih DD jobs (rng mainly). In the past you would get a pld if you wanted quick kills and nin if you wanted no down time. now it seems nin gets just as quick kills with less down time. paladin really has no place in exp PT past 60 except fighting goblins.

paladin needs some major enhancments to make them compete with ninja.

[Paman]

you're right haus, but both jobs have their pros and cons. personally i prefer NIN tanks over PLDs in exp parties. i agree that NINs might have it easier after lvl 60, but that doesnt make PLD worthless. look at all the HNM / god linkshells, you just cant have a NIN tank dynamis lord or something. imo PLD dont need any enhancements. the game cant be too balanced, there has to be some differences between jobs. its good that they keep the game a little bit unbalanced. (not too much though, look at what happened to SWG.)

on the other hand, if NIN gets a new utsusemi spell, PLD should also get a new hate generating tool, just to keep the game fair

[Haushinka]

You're just now aproching the level where PLD become DD paman. 73+ PLD is most desirable /nin and as a DD with joyeuse int heir off hand. You know a job is broke when it is deisgned for tanking yet it makes a better damage dealer than a tank. PLD should be the prefered tank job, that is its only purpose in life. SE needs to do something to make parties prefer PLD tanks to NIN tanks. I know when I play as WAR i prefer a nin tank, even though I end up tanking half the fight I find it easier to get away without a white mage. RDM main healer for me please, with a BRD there for backup.

[Paman]

i guess you have more experience at the lvls past 70, so i wont doubt you. although, dispite the fact that NIN might be more preferred at endgame exp/merit parties, i see a lot more PLDs at that lvl walking around. PLD is a good tank and it has its purpose, ie NIN has a hard time tanking stuff that hits really fast, when a PLD might have trouble with stuff that hits slowly but hard. maybe it changes after lvl 74 (like rdm does after lvl 41), i wouldnt know since im not that high lvl yet.

btw that's my ideal party setup also /cheer

[Haushinka]

Well for EXP parties (including merit parties) the current theme is TP Burn parties. Basically everyone does everything they can to just spam TP attacks against VT mobs. The things die quick so really all you need a tank for is the first 30-60 seconds of the fight. After that most people have shaddows anyway and the mob will be dead before it goes through 6 shaddows.

In these parties pld gets a bad rep for wasting mp (you never stop killing - mages rest durring combat). In truth this is because too many pld suck at their job still at that lvl. I can easily manage my mp with just refresh. PLD can also spirit taker to get back some MP. But really since it doesn't matter if they hold hate anyway a ninja is much prefered. Plus the differance between PLD in DRK is only souleater. Besides that they both are just about the same job so with good gear a PLD can own some stuff (this requires a company/joyeuse (or ridel) setup.

My big problem is NMs and HNMs and just about any tough mob. As you had mentioned Paman, nin are best against hard hitting mobs. Nin are also the best bet against fast NMs, this is where DRK begin to shine. When the nin needs to get up utsu ichi the mob needs to get stunned. One of the fastest hitting NMsi is the Joyeuse NM and a pld can't tank it without 3-5 whms supporting him. A nin and a brd can duo it if the nin has enough evasion gear. Or thrown in a rdm/drk and its a cakewalk. So nin are the best choice against fast and hard hitting mobs.

The only time end game when pld is the ideal tank is when the mob spams AOE abilities. These are pretty rare. One AOE ever 30 seconds is fine for a nin its just when they dont stop AOEing that a pld steps in. But then again all of the best endgame PLD armor can be worn by a WAR too. WAR have defender which does as much as sentinal or rampart. The only thing they really lack is the awesome pld 2hr. However WAR can sub nin and have utsu ni, however if pld does this they find themselves without Provoke.

Paladin is by no means a bad job, it just needs a little bit of tweaking to work better. Maybe the MP regeneration they are talking about will help but I'm not so confident. They really just need a way to tank without causing down time for the party.

[Paman]

/em is stunned. nothing more to add, i think that sums it all up. i understand now haus, thanks for the lecture (or whatever u can call that )

[Missing Link]

accually i just don't like casting the spell it wears off so fast and cost almost the same amount as a cure3 =P & the mob might miss he might not so what r u gaining a chance to conserve MP's or giving out another 25MP's..blah. Flash is whm's gimp Provoke it's the fastest spell a whm can use that grab's the mobs attention.

[Haushinka]

You have a point, if your divine magic isn't capped you will be hard pressed to get flash to stick or make the mob miss. And when it works it probably doesn't last long. With capped divine skill I can get a quick hitting mob to miss 4 attacks (more if they double attack). It lasts about 15-20 seconds I'd say. Also there is very little chance that the mob actually hits.

I know as WAR I love it when I pull hate off the PLD when my shaddows wear if he flashes the mob it won't touch me for enough time to get up shaddows. With a PLD tank a whm casting flash is not necesary at all (mostly because it requires the whm to be standing up longer than the occasional cure 5 time). However I would think that a well timed flash with a NIN tank would allow him to get up shaddows when Ni isn't ready and the mob keeps interupting Ichi. Many NIN like to have the blm or drk cast stun when they are having trouble getting up Ichi. Instead of a blm or drk pulling more hate (which if they are doing their job right would be a bad thing) a white mage could flash and shouldn't have to worry about pulling hate.

[Haushinka]

BTW - yay for actually having a controversial discussion about something important in the game ^^